Caglecast Episode 5: Top Ten Cartoons of the Week with Jeff Koterba and Dave Whamond Daryl Cagle: [00:00:00] Hi everybody. This is the Caglecast from Cagle.com. We're all about political cartoons and cartoonists, and about the news and issues of the day. Be sure to subscribe wherever you're watching this or listening to this, and visit Caglecast.com to see all of the cartoons and podcasts. In case you're just, getting an audio podcast and you wanna see what we're talking about, we'll discuss the top 10 most reprinted editorial cartoons in America from the last week. I'm Daryl Cagle and I'm here with my editor Brian Farrington, our CagleCartoons newspaper syndicate editor, and today we have CagleCartoonist, Dave Whamond, and we have Jeff Koterba, so both these guys are our most reprinted cartoonists at Kegel cartoons. They are always in the top 10. They often have multiple cartoons in the top 10 this week, both Jeff and Dave have two cartoons in the top 10. And that is just so impressive and it's so important for us [00:01:00] because, we've gotta have a product that editors like. And it's the popular cartoons with editors that let the cartoonists draw what they wanna draw. Unpopular with editors, I should say, what's popular with editors is not necessarily the best cartoons. It's not necessarily what Dave and Jeff are gonna think are their best cartoons. It's the cartoons that the editors like, and editors have a different criteria for what they like than what cartoonists like. We like to be hard hitting and, force our opinions on others and say things that can be controversial and try to convince readers of our point of view. And, editors like things that are, light and funny and don't generate letters to the editor. I should say that both you guys do both. Uh, and I really appreciate that because if we didn't have the cartoons, the editors like we'd have nothing to sell and it lets you do everything when we have a mix of things and, uh, One of these days I'm gonna start doing podcasts about cartoons. [00:02:00] Editors don't like that we like, and then I'll ask you to show us some of those cartoons, . So I wanna let everybody know that these are just the cartoons that are printed more than anybody else, and that our customers, the editors like more than anybody else, but they may not be the cartoons that Jeff and Dave like the most. So, any comments on that? Gentlemen? Go ahead, Jeff Koterba: Dave. Well, yeah, I'll jump in. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's true and, but I appreciated this in Dave's work and, and it's certainly something that, it's something that , it's been one of my goals, I guess, when I'm drawing cartoons, is to mix it up. And when I was at the newspaper, that was something that I always did. It was, uh, a thing that I noticed in early on in Jim Boorman's work. Jim Borgman, the cartoonist two has continued to draw the comic strip zits, but when he was drawing editorial cartoons in Cincinnati, I noticed that in his work and that one day he might hit you really hard, uh, with a really strongly opinionated cartoon and the next day something light [00:03:00] and fluffy about life in Cincinnati. And I just, I found that to be a, a great technique, uh, in an authentic way. As someone who's drawing regularly in a local newspaper. And, and I, I feel like that that continues now. And I think that it's something that readers, readers get tired if they're continually pummeled with hard hitting and predictable cartoons. And I think it's interesting, , a lot of composers did that. Beethoven, for example, would come out with something really experimental and the audience was like offended by it. And then the next time you come back with something more traditional and happy and everybody like, okay, okay, we're, we're good with Beethoven. And I kind of feel like I've kind of just authentically, organically done that in my career. And I, I find that that just engages readers more and doesn't wear them out as much. That, that's just kinda my take on it. Daryl Cagle: Yeah. Dave, you've got the number one cartoon this week. I'm gonna show you your cartoon here. . Dave Whamond: Sure. And I, I agree with Jeff. , just as far as, um, the hard hitting cartoons are much more fun to draw. [00:04:00] Um, but you. It is good to shake it up and have like just a, a light chuckle. And I notice online, like on Twitter, the hard hitting cartoons, get all the likes, and then someone will post one of my, like a cartoon closer to what's on the screen now, and that will get maybe a few likes, but it's popular with the paper. So, you know, I don't blame Daryl Cagle: people on. . A very different audience than the newspaper editors. Definitely does. And I also suspect that the newspaper readers are a different audience than the newspaper editors. Mm-hmm. , and that they might like more hard-hitting partisan cartoons. Mm-hmm. . But, uh, that's not where newspapers are going. So your cartoon is, uh, Valentine's Day cartoon. We call these pox on both your houses cartoons, where we're bashing Republicans and Democrats equally. And that's, something editors like, that bashing them both equally is just as good for editors as having neither of them appear at all, . And so you've got Cupid and you've got the Democrat donkey and the Republican elephant donkey says, Hey, are you carrying a Cupid [00:05:00] arrow without a permit? And uh, Cupid says, oh, I'm just trying to get you guys to like each other. And the elephant says, Is that pointy thing, like a vaccine needle. I refuse to get this shot, . I think that's funny. Yeah, that works well. People, people aren't gonna complain about that. And it's funny. And you know, I think you're gonna notice as we go through all of these cartoons, how important holidays are to editors, we're gonna show you the top 10 cartoons. This is number one of the last week. And then we're also gonna go into the top 10 cartoons that you guys have had in your entire editorial karate tuning career with us over the years. And, this, I think, is born out even more when you look at it on that kind of a grand scale of how much emphasis editors have on holidays and on, uh, nothing from the left and the right. Brian Fairrington: Yeah. That's their number one I request every season. [00:06:00] Uh, they ask, uh, are you guys gonna have Memorial Day cartoons? Are you gonna have 4th of July cartoons? And they ask those way in advance. So they're very important to editors because they like to cover those things. , because readers like them, Dave Whamond: I was just gonna say, I put this one out about, uh, almost a week ahead of Valentine's Day, cuz I thought I'm gonna end up forgetting. So that way it gives them papers a lot of time to, uh, you know, put it in if they want ahead of time or whatever. So Jeff Koterba: Something like, exactly like Memorial Day, of course it's, you know, it's on a Monday and, and, editors are planning the weekend and I know how it was when I was with the newspaper. You're already thinking on Tuesday and Wednesday for the next weekend and ahead and there's a holiday. I was wondering for you when you drew this, or after the fact, uh, when those other objects were shot down, Were you thinking, ah, if I just waited and not Drawn Cupid, then maybe I could have drawn Cupid in some other capacity, but I'd already already done that. I dunno if that occurred to you. That sometimes happens to me where I'm, I'm like, I don't wanna do anything too soon because maybe something [00:07:00] else will happen Right. But Dave Whamond: yeah, no, it's funny cuz uh, the, the next cartoon that was in the top 10 is, has the, um, I don't know, want to jump ahead too much, but was, had some of the things that were shot down during the week and I thought Cupid would've been good to put on there, but I thought I already did the Cupid cartoon and, and then it ended up a whole bunch of other cartoonists. Did a Cupid being shot down . Daryl Cagle: Here's Chris wt. Chris is a, a New Yorker cartoonist. He draws two cartoons a week for us. One of them is for the Boston Globe, and he's got a couple guys sitting in the bar with all the Super Bowl stuff on the wall, and, and they've got their drinks in front of him. The bartender says, who do you want in the Super Bowl? Red State of blue State. I get it. It's uh, you know, it's football, it's Super Bowl time. Here's Dave Granland with a, Valentine's Day cartoon. Dozen roses choices for your Valentine this year. If money is no object is also a dozen eggs. And that's cute. You know, the high price of eggs cartoons has been [00:08:00] exciting for everybody. Jeff Koterba: It's very exciting. I'm working on one of those right now. Actually, , I mean, not at this very moment. I Dave Whamond: gave my wife a dozen eggs. I thought I'd get her something expensive this year. It didn't go over so well as the, as the roses. Daryl Cagle: Okay, here's Jeff's cartoon. I think we're at number four. And Cupid says, I'm not buying it. And he's shooting at the happy Valentine's Day balloon Chinese surveillance balloon o up over the earth Cupid at 50,000 feet. That's cute. Yeah. Or Jeff Koterba: another object. Or another object. So I, I, I drew this over the weekend when we found out that these other objects were being shot down and, uh, you know, one of the frustrations with deadlines, No editors in general, unless there's some huge breaking story, are gonna be working on the weekend to drop in the cartoon. Uh, you know, that's, that's one of the things that's changed. When I was at the newspaper, if there was a big breaking story, it was possible that I could go, would go in on a Saturday or Sunday [00:09:00] and drop something in last minute, but that's not really going to happen now. And so those, those objects were being shot down and I knew that probably other people would come up with this idea, but I wanted to draw it first and at least, at least get it out into the world. Uh, and then post it first thing in the morning for editors to pick up Daryl Cagle: looking good. I didn't know you had to go into the newspaper to draw your cartoon, the days Jeff Koterba: back in the back the day. Oh yeah, certainly. I mean, I got, well, yeah, I mean, it was, there was a time when I was working, uh, seven days a. And even today in Omaha, we've had a, a, a snowstorm and everything's closed down. And there was a time, I, when I think back to traditional newspaper land, there was a time when, if there was a snowstorm, I would, if it was on the weekend, I would still trudge in to draw a cartoon about the snowstorm. And that's one of those cartoons that I was referring to earlier where, you know, you're, you're drawing cartoons criticizing the mayor and the governor and whatever, but then what is that one cartoon we can all kind of get behind and agree on and say, [00:10:00] okay, maybe Jeff's not such a bad guy after all, and he's one of us. He's dealing with, you know, schools being closed or whatever, and getting it in as quickly as possible for the next morning. Daryl Cagle: Okay. All right, gentlemen. Here's the next one. Dave, this is your cartoon. It's got a, a jet pilot and he's got his, uh, little graphic kills next to his window on the side of the plane. A balloon, Mary Poppins, Peter Pan, e t, and Snoopy. This is a very funny cartoon and also, you know, where we, put the copyright acknowledgement in the corner. You've got apologies to Peanuts, Peter Pan, Mary Poppins, and et , which is in itself a very funny copyright acknowledgement, , I should say. That's kind of a, a legal. Advice requirement for editorial cartoons who are, have the, legal permission in the United States through the courts to be able to use copyright and trademark characters that other people own. But we have kind of rules that [00:11:00] we need to follow and, and one of them that we follow is putting an acknowledgement of the copyright holder in the corner. And sometimes those acknowledgements like this would look pretty funny. So, uh, I enjoyed this Jeff Koterba: cartoon. That's gotta be a record, Dave. That has to be a record for acknowledgement. I know, I, I was, Dave Whamond: I was thinking, geez, I, I would've zoomed in a bit more, but I needed room to put in the apologies. So, Daryl Cagle: this is a very funny cartoon Dave Whamond: ev, everyone was upset about the, uh, Snoop. Like, not the soft with Camel, not the flying ace. How could you do that to Snoopy? I thought, okay, no one else, no one cares about Peter Pan or ET or Mary Popp. You know, I noticed, I Daryl Cagle: noticed that on tv. Uh, they're always murdering people on tv, but they can't murder a puppy that would bake the No. Public outraged. Yeah. . I, well, Jeff Koterba: I'm offended that you, uh, put a red balloon on there. I, you know, I didn't, Dave Whamond: upstate apologies for the balloon, so I forgot that one. So, Jeff Koterba: 99 balloon. There's a wonderful old Well, yeah, and there's a [00:12:00] wonderful old French film. Uh, the Red Balloon, uh, won the Academy Award, I think in 1956 for short film. Lovely. It's actually a, one of the reasons I, I, uh, fell in love with, uh, cartooning. I fell in love with French culture because of that film, and thus found French cartoonists when I was, uh, like five years old. And then, that, that's what kind of launched my career, so to speak. Did you have Brian Fairrington: any other, uh, uh, icons that you considered putting on the side of the plane for kills at all? Were there any other candidates? I Dave Whamond: did think of Cuban, but then I thought, um, this one, this, this might go past, uh, Valentine's Day. So I thought I'll just, uh, I'll leave it at with these five, Daryl Cagle: I guess. So, you know, it's true. If Cupid was in there, they wouldn't print it past Valentine's Day. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. You could have put Santa Claus in there. Dave Whamond: Could have. Yep. Superman, you know, Yeah, you could add a whole bunch, you know? Yeah. There's, there was a lot, Daryl Cagle: lot of room for, all right. This one is by Canadian cartoonist, guy Parsons. He's got a guy, uh, looking at his computer and [00:13:00] he says he thinks finally and looking at the computer, it says, want to stop getting phishing emails? Click here. Um, that's cute. You know, I might mention we've got, two Canadian cartoonists who masquerade as American cartoonist. One of them is you, Dave. Oh. And noted. You know, if we, uh, , if we put you in a section show, said you were Canadian cartoonist, you would be absolutely invisible to American editors. Uh, that's what makes you disappear. But, uh, you guys are great American cartoonists and, we're delighted to have you Dave Whamond: here. Oh, thanks. I'm, I actually went to school at art college with Guy, so we've, uh, we go back a long way. Daryl Cagle: Really? You're in the same class in college? Yeah. Yep. Well, very good. I, he telling me everything I know. Jeff Koterba: So , I like guy's choice of, uh, of purple hair here. I think that's like, uh, I dunno why that, like, that's something that wouldn't occur to me. I, I tend to stick with a traditional palette mm-hmm. . And I love, I love pushing the limit, just even graphically. It's, [00:14:00] it makes it, it makes it more interesting. . Daryl Cagle: It is fun. Yeah. Now this is the cartoon, uh, that the cartoonists are talking about because it is largely drawn by artificial intelligence. It's the first, editorial cartoon to be, uh, syndicated editorial cartoon, I think to be drawn by artificial intelligence. It's by Rick McKee and, It's got the Pandora's Box monster coming out of the artificial intelligence box, good, nasty looking monster. And a guy is, uh, back turned to it thinking, who the heck is Pandora looking at the packing slip on the box? I think that's cute. We actually did a podcast with Rick about, his creating this cartoon and about the other AI stuff that he's been doing, and we're going to run that podcast after, uh, this episode. So be sure to stay tuned for our next podcast probably on Monday. What, Brian Fairrington: uh, what, what's your take on this, you guys on, uh, how you, what, what you think, what Rick did, and then what you think of [00:15:00] the future of ai? And I Dave Whamond: love the concept that, uh, using actual AI to create the image, I thought that was a great idea. And, uh, as far as ai, it's just yet another thing coming that we'll, we, artists are gonna have to adjust to and figure out. Uh, Uh, how to deal with it, I guess, you know, it's, uh, it's in its infancy stage, but, uh, like I, I always thought this is a pretty safe profession. No, a computer can't rec recreate what we do, but those days are, uh, coming to an end now. So, Jeff Koterba: yeah, I have a, I have a friend who's a, a TV commentator and he wrote a commentary against the use of ai and he used AI to. An opinion against the use of ai. And it was brilliant. Oh, right. And he didn't, I don't think he sh, I don't think he told his audience, and it made all these great points why AI is awful. That's like this meta scary thing. I, I, you know, like Dave said, I mean, it's a tool and, you know, we'll see where it [00:16:00] goes. And I don't want to be all panicked, stricken, but, I had, uh, uh, advertised that I was taking on, uh, commissions, uh, for Christmas, uh, last fall at about the same time that AI was got kind of blowing up. And it was really depressing. I'm like, Hey, send me your photos. I'll draw your caricature. And then there are all these brilliant, wonderful caricatures filling up on Instagram and Facebook, and I just thought, oh man, uh, I, I guess the one thing I, I wanna believe is that, uh, it can replicate intelligence and, and beautiful art. But there was something about humanity and , I know that, that AI is being programmed for that, but. , I wanna believe that, that there's something about humanity and kindness and human experience that can't be replicated. But I, that's probably already out the door too. I don't, I don't know. Mm-hmm. . Daryl Cagle: Well, you know, there's, there are styles that ai Yeah. There are styles that AI does better than other styles. Mm-hmm. and those, I think, are the artists that are most threatened in the [00:17:00] beginning. The styles, like when I was back at, in college at Art Center in the seventies, the, the Mark English, Bernie Fuchs, Bob Peak kind of styles that, oh gosh. AI does those great. Yeah. Uh, when I was working for the Muppets in the eighties, I worked with all these, uh, airbrush artists and lettering artists. You know, the guys that do the Muppet logo and the, the lettering on the book covers, those guys are all gone. Mm-hmm. nobody. Does that anymore because everybody does it on a computer. Uh mm-hmm. professions disappear. You know, 120 years ago there were 150,000 full-time working illustrators in America. And then, uh, all of the catalogs started using photographies and, uh, you know, three-fourths of them are out of work in a couple of years. Yeah. Um, this stuff really does replace people and these elements of thinking how superior it is to have them done by real people have in the past not carried the [00:18:00] day. Mm-hmm. . Brian Fairrington: Yeah. I think ultimately, I think the illustrator, I don't know about the editorial cartoonist and the comic strip and things like that initially, but I think the, just the freelance illustrator is, is in real trouble because. These things. I, I already see things on social media about art directors saying, oh, this is a wonderful tool and I can do this and that. And, and I think it will totally eliminate, uh, the freelance illustrator. Um, and I don't think the public's gonna care. I think the public's gonna think this is a wonderful new tool and mm-hmm. , and, and I don't really think they realize that the domino effect, I think even publishers are thinking, well, maybe we won't hire a children's book author because we could, we could do it, we could write it ourselves and we can illustrate it in-house, but, but everybody's gonna have that magic genie. So how is that gonna affect publishers when everybody can do the same thing on their computer? They don't even need a publisher anymore. Mm-hmm. . Uh, and then how will that affect the market when, you know, in terms of, cuz you can't copyright anything in an ai, so, um, that'll be interesting. So I, I, I think the domino [00:19:00] effect here is, is, um, it's gonna be bad and I don't know where it's gonna end up, but mm-hmm. Dave Whamond: um, there, there is something to be said for. Having an original piece of art. And so I could just see people saying, Hey, this, this one was created by an actual human. You know, it's almost the reverse of the I am not a robot box. Right, Daryl Cagle: right. We'll have to check that. You should see the unsolicited submissions we get, we get submissions from guys who are so proud of their memes on the internet where they're stealing art and photography somewhere and just putting their words on top of it, and they want us to syndicate that. Brian Fairrington: Right? Well, the generations that are younger than us, uh, pr presumably millennial and Gen Z, they don't have any perception of that. Uh, they, they, mm-hmm. , they just take things and they share, and they have, you know, memes aren't, aren't monetized in any way. Uh, they just share them. And I mean, it's a shame whoever started memes didn't do that, but they, they didn't, they never did. And they just, they just randomly create things. And, uh, there's no market there because it's flooded and it's anonymous. And I think that's what AI will continue to do [00:20:00] and mm-hmm. , and unless there's legislation and, um, things to protect, creators. But I, I just, I think this, uh, the Pandora box is a perfect metaphor for that because I think we have no idea. So Daryl Cagle: what do we do when someone submits lovely AI generated drawings that they have written, uh, stuff to go with and their writing is fine, and they're expressing their own opinions, and all the drawing is done by ai. Is that something. We would consider, I don't know. What would you Brian Fairrington: guys do? It's, uh, it's something we'll have to debate. I'm sure it's coming down the pike for sure. Mm-hmm. . Dave Whamond: and how to tell the difference too, like how do you know if it's AI created or, Brian Fairrington: or, right. I mean, that's the thing about Rick played around with us. He showed us several examples and he, he had several, uh, uh, iterations of this and he, and he kept playing around with the, uh, the text prompts, the common delineated sentences that you have to. to get this art. And, this came out pretty close to a, a brushy kind of traditional editorial cartoon, comic strip style. And he just [00:21:00] manipulated the background, blended it in. And, and that's why it looks convincing if you, if, if, if he hadn't told you it was done by ai, you'd think, oh, Rick's Art's really improved, uh, uh, in detail. But, um, , you know, in terms of, uh, you know, Rick's a great cartoonist. I don't mean the disparage him, but I mean, in terms of how much time he spent on that, because we all do that. Mm-hmm. When we see somebody and they may have spent a couple extra hours on something, you're like, oh, wow, that's a great cartoon. He really spent a lot of time drawing whatever it is. And, um, and it could have passed. No one would've questioned, oh, Rick didn't draw that. They would've said, oh, he really spent some extra time on it. Mm-hmm. Because it, it's passable. Uh, and it, it literally, he said it took him two minutes to, to create this seriously Wow. Of, of, uh, of the main art. And then he just drew his man on the street on the corner there. Daryl Cagle: Of course the box is drawn by AI also. Yeah. The box, everything except the man in the corner. Brian Fairrington: Yeah. And the, and the, he put the AI on it. That's what he put on it. Jeff Koterba: D Darryl, I have a confession to make. Uh, everything I've submitted to Keel cartoons in the last five months. It's all ai. [00:22:00] There you Daryl Cagle: go. Oh, the world has already ended. . I thought it was going to end. Bloody. Yeah. All right. Finally moving on. This one's by Dave Granland, who is, uh, you know, he is right up there with you guys, has been the most popular ones. And he's got MIT Romney standing in front of the capitol holding a newspaper that says, mitten Santos doesn't belong in Washington. G o p pushback. And MIT thinks I'm for truth, family values and following my conscience. Maybe I'm the one who doesn't belong here. Brian Fairrington: good old mit. Daryl Cagle: All right. This one's by Kevin CERs, our cartoonist from, uh, North Carolina, who's now our cartoonist from Maryland. And we've got a, looks like aired air missile coming. Get Winnie the poos balloon that's got him up in the air. Uh, Whitney's the poo says, oh, bother. And it says, news item Noad adjusts its radar spots, more airspace incursions. That's cute. He's got his apologies to Disney in there. . Dave Whamond: [00:23:00] hey, hey, I wonder what's gonna happen with AI when, uh, they copied a Disney artist. They're gonna have like a whole flock of lawyers going after whoever did that. Well, Brian Fairrington: I think that's where it's gonna be decided in terms of, uh, uh, you know, what's gonna happen in court and, and because the, uh, the copyright and trademark laws don't even address it really. They say that anything, anything created in AI is not protected. So you can't, you can't monetize it in that sense. But, but Disney's fanatical, especially since they took over Star Wars. You know, they don't allow anybody to use their Star Wars imagery. I mean, George Lucas used to allow fan art and things like that, but Disney's really cracking down on that. And, uh, especially now Bob Iger is back and they're desperate to bring up their billion dollar profits again. But, um, I Daryl Cagle: should add here that we are artists and not lawyers and we don't know what the hell we're talking about. We don't know. Right? Exactly. So , right. All right. And this is the cartoon number 10. This one is by our dear Jeff Katuba. It's got, uh, the Statue of Liberty, and on her base it says, gimme, you're tired, you're poor, you're huddled masses. Yearning [00:24:00] Tube, breathe free. And then in the next frame, lady Liberty is gone and there's, uh, a derelict looking Uncle Sam asleep, leaning up against the base, which now says, give me, you're tired of shootings. You're huddled masses yearning for safety. He's asleep because he is not paying attention to the problem at hand. And, that's sad. Hmm. , you know, this, this kind of brings up, an issue that editorial cartoonists, waiver on, which is act exactly who is Uncle Sam. For most American car editorial cartoons, uncle Sam is, every man. He's not the government. He's every man and every man is concerned about the shootings. It's the government that doesn't care about the shootings. And you find internationally when they draw Uncle Sam, they're drawing Uncle Sam to represent the government rather than the American citizen. And I wonder if you grapple with that. Uh, Jeff, that's one thing that makes American editorial [00:25:00] cartoons, uh, incomprehensible overseas is, uh, uncle Sam, uh, never quite fits an exact pattern for them to understand. Hm. Jeff Koterba: Yeah, well, uncle Sam, to me as a shape sifter. So, uh, I still think of Uncle Sam the traditional way, uh, that, that Uncle Sam represents, uh, the US government more than, more than the average person. That's the average show. That's how I think of if I'm gonna draw the average show, I'm gonna draw the average Joe or Jane or whatever. Uh, also having said that though, I've also, uh, grappled with uncle depicting Uncle Sam as an old white guy. And, uh, that is not who we are, and I don't think it, it expresses diversity. So over time, I have, uh, in the past drawn Uncle Sam as uncle as Aunt Jane. Uh, I have drawn, uh, uh, an Uncle Sam or Aunt Jane figure of color. And I have, uh, found that, uh, readers, don't sometimes understand. [00:26:00] What I'm doing there. And it's a little frustrating. They expect the cliche imagery and frankly, as a cartoonist, I wouldn't mind killing off Uncle Sam as a symbol altogether, honestly. And the same with the elephants and donkeys, and I'd draw those as much as anyone else. Yeah. But it's, it's ti it's kind of a tired thing, and yet it's a shorthand because we are only allowed so much time and space in that panel, and we have to get to the point as quickly as we can. Mm-hmm. . And it's, it's difficult to, uh, make a point quickly and it's, it's shorthand. So when you draw Uncle Sam, when I draw Uncle Sam, I mostly think of Uncle Sam as the, as the government. And it's a shorthand. What, I don't know what else we draw to mm-hmm. to represent the government. Daryl Cagle: So yeah, I don't, I don't think I've ever drawn him representing the government. It's always been every man. I put an Uncle Sam hat on a dog. And the dog is every man. You could always, what do you think of Uncle Sam from, uh, Canada? . Dave Whamond: Yeah. No, it's just, he's sort of the [00:27:00] iconic, I I think every, that's why we use him as everybody connects the, I I think of him as every man, or, you know, if you put 'em in the posters like the old, uh, we want you, then you can, you connect it more to the government. But, uh, you can always go with an eagle. Um, statue of Liberty. You know, they're all sort of the same types of, uh, cliches, but like I, it, uh, Jeff said it gets the message across right away. You don't have to explain who this person is, who's like, why they're there. It's like as soon as you see Uncle Sam or an Eagle or Statue of Liberty, you know, right away it depicts America or the average Daryl Cagle: Americans. The difference typically with the international cartoonists that we represent, uh, the international cartoonists for them, he's always the government. Mm-hmm. . He's never a never man. Uh, one, one interesting thing, and that's Uncle Sam was Jeff Koterba: born Daryl Cagle: mm-hmm. . One interesting thing to look at is, uh, cartoons from our, uh, Chinese cartoonist Logi, who [00:28:00] draws, uh, pretty strong anti-American propaganda cartoons, uh, for his government run newspaper and anti Brian Fairrington: for him, anti Taiwan. Daryl Cagle: Yeah. Uncle Sam is, is quite the monster in lo geez cartoons, but he's the government monster. The people of America suffer at the hands of Uncle Sam. Jeff Koterba: Well, this begs the question, what would AI come up with, or what will AI come up with for a symbol of the American government? I mean, I'm as, uh, concerned about AI as, as you guys, but, or, you know, but as, uh, most people are, some artists, but I'm also intrigued by what, where does this take us? Maybe, maybe it shakes things up a little. Just to be, just to be a little disruptive here, maybe I wonder what AI would say come up with a cartoon image of the American government or of the average person, not even the average man. I get tired of that. That as well, because it's the average person. Well, Daryl Cagle: right. Jeff. This is your most popular cartoon you've ever drawn in your many years with us. [00:29:00] And, uh, this is the gal driving the car and she's looking in the rear view mirror where there's a huge covid and she says, please stay in the rear view mirror. Please stay in as she's driving towards a year three of Covid. Um, I could see why they liked this. Mm-hmm. . Jeff Koterba: Well with a mask hanging from the rear view mirror. I mean, we are. Always seeing people with their masks hanging from the mirror. So that was a way for me to capture sort of that everyday experience that we all have if we're not doing that ourselves. We've seen other cars with the mirror, you know, with the, the mask hanging from the mirror. So, just wanted, Dave Whamond: I'm sorry, I just, I just wanna, Jeff Koterba: yeah, I wanna give that sense of an everyday experience and, uh, when I, I first conceived this idea, I thought, oh man, uh, I could see it, but I thought this is gonna be a real challenge because there are a lot of elements going on here. We have the person, we have what she's saying, the mirror, the mask, the sign in the distance. and, uh, this, this was a [00:30:00] difficult one for me to, to pull off. Uh, and I, yeah, but I, I'm, I'm happy with how it turned out, but it was a complex idea to squeeze into one Brian Fairrington: image. Did you use a Ford tourist for the, uh, dashboard or what did you Jeff Koterba: I think. Does that look like it might be? I don't, I can't re it might have been my own car. I, Daryl Cagle: I don't recall if this was crazy that Dave, this is uh, I can see the main, as many papers as Ken printed, printed it, Brian Fairrington: I can see the main challenge in, in trying to lay this out as the rear view mirror cuz Yeah. How, how big can you go with it being believable? Mm-hmm. at the same time. That's the main thing you have to put in the river mirror so it works. You, you pulled it off wonderfully Jeff Koterba: Well, thanks. And here's a cartoon that wouldn't have been done and Dave, I, I know you can attest to this too, like, you know, early on in Covid. I didn't even want to draw the dang thing because it just mm-hmm. , it was disgusting to even think about. And then after time it was this, you know, serious thing. And after time we started allowing ourselves to have some fun with it and kind of joke around about what it looked like. I mean, does that really look like a covid [00:31:00] thing? I, I guess, but we, it sort of became this symbol we were talking about symbols like Sam and elephants and donkeys, and that will now forever be just symboled for covid. Mm-hmm. green ball with red spikes. Yeah. Brian Fairrington: Very, very Christmasy. Dave Whamond: You know, very, and just that little bit of. You, you know exactly what it is, just seeing it in the mirror. So, right. I thought you did a nice job as far, like, you could be tempted to show the entire thing, but you what you, the solution you chose works. Works great. So, Jeff Koterba: thanks. And if you zoom the woman's pup, you can see her, the reflection of the Covid in her eyeball from the rear mirror. Very Daryl Cagle: detailed. So here, here's your second most popular cartoon, Jeff. You've got the two astronauts poking their head out of the Space station one, and they see three shooting stars. One says, look, Swik, we have company, the other one says, u f o. First one again says, no, just Bezos, Musk and Branson showing off. That's what they want. Bezos, Musk and Branson are cartoon [00:32:00] characters. Yeah, that works Brian Fairrington: well. talk about a, a little bit about your process, Jeff. I mean, are you, you're all digital now, right? Jeff Koterba: Yep. I was a long time, uh, old school guy, uh, preferred to draw a pen and ink paper. I loved getting ink and paint on my hands and my clothes ruining neckties for many years. And then it was because of the pandemic that I began drawing digitally. I'd had a, I was still working in the newspaper. I was avoiding going in, I was drawing, working remotely, but I had all of my gear. I was scanning, I was printing and painting the scans, and it was very complicated. That was all at the newspaper. And my son reminded me, dad, dad, you had this iPad sitting in a box four years. Dig it out. And I, I just refused to, uh, and I talked to Steve Sack, the wonderful, amazing editorial cartoonist who's, who's, uh, retired now, but, and he encouraged me to, to dive in. He said, Jeff, just one day decide you are going to now start drawing, uh, with, you know, digitally. And I, that's pretty much what I did. And it was, it was life changing. [00:33:00] And, uh, so yeah, that's, yeah, I'm not drawing that way. So, . Yeah, it, Brian Fairrington: it, it looks good. Very good. Daryl Cagle: So thanks. Mom and daughter are walking down the street walking by the stores and she says, what if the supply chain disrupts holiday deliveries? This was when we were having some supply chain problems, and boy, they liked this. They wondered cartoons about supply chain problems. Dave Whamond: Yeah, it's a great idea. I think like Jeff always has ideas where I think, geez, I wish I thought of that. So that's like a, oh, thanks. Good. A good cartoonist compliment, you know, , when, when other cartoonists say, geez, I wish Jeff Koterba: I thought of that. So yeah, thanks. When they're walking by camera, if you mentioned this, they're walking by a dozen shops that talk about buying local, but they're saying, what about disrupting the, the deliveries? Mm-hmm. , the pointing out, the, the ironic irony, and that was something I tried to do locally is, you know, really, really support local as much as I could during the pa. I mean, I do anyway, but. . Daryl Cagle: Very good. All right here, Jeff. You've got, uh, a big [00:34:00] interest rates wrecking ball coming towards the housing market, home of an innocent, uh, homeowner. And the Fed is swinging the ball, and that's very scary and threatening, and editors love this one. Jeff Koterba: Yeah, I wasn't happy with this drawing, Darrell. I felt that, uh, the swing of the ball wasn't going to quite land. It might skim the top of the roof and not really crash in. I wish I had drawn this differently with more impact at larger, much larger ball. Uh, and my friend, who is the TV commentator, is also a real realtor, and I don't think he was very happy with this cartoon. Daryl Cagle: realtors didn't like this cartoon. Editors must have been getting angry letters from realtors. Okay. This one was wildly popular. because, uh, , the story the editors wanna cover is the nursing shortage. You've got a hiring sign above the emergency room sign that says nurses needed and all of the ambulances are lined up because, not enough nurses for them. Awesome. Hiring emergency. Very nice [00:35:00] platoon. Oh, hiring emergency. Yes. I, I looked at it as hiring nurses needed. It's the hiring emergency. Okay, here you've got, uh, mom and son sitting at their laptops. Son is writing. Dear Santa, and Mom is writing. Dear Senator, That's cute. Her laptop says Covid 19 relief. Still no deal. She's frustrated and she's stuck at home. And that's how we were all feeling, just what the newspapers wanted at that time. I should say though, for every cartoon like this, there were probably eight cartoons bashing Donald Trump. And, um, I think you'll notice among all of these cartoons, there's no cartoons about Donald Trump. And consistently during the last three years of the Trump administration editors were simply not printing cartoons about Donald Trump, drawing a Donald Trump. Cartoon was a guarantee that no one was gonna see your cartoon. And [00:36:00] that's, uh, that's very frustrating for cartoonists and Dave Whamond: Trump is, is a cartoonist dream, you know? So it's like , it's like a guy like that comes along. You, you gotta draw him. You gotta, there's so much mar material. Daryl Cagle: it is in cartoonists, they developed their shorthand for him. He had the huge long tie that we did lots of jokes with. He became really obese. Everybody had their own way of drawing his hair. Uh, some made him more orange than others, but he was consistently Brian Fairrington: orange. What about. Three months into his presidency, uh, we started to get a lot of blowback from editors that were, you know, why are you always bashing Trump? All your cartoonists bash Trump. We're gonna go to another syndicate. And then they'd go to another syndicate, and a couple months later they'd come back, said, they're even worse. I had to tell them, listen, you know, that he's, he's a unique creature, uh, political creature. He is the gift that keeps on giving, and the cartoonists are commenting because the media's covering him 24 7 . But to Darrell's point, I mean, editors [00:37:00] just got tired of it because they didn't want the blowback from their readers and mm-hmm. And they really wanted cartoons that were not Trump. So anything, not Trump. And that's why we put up the, uh, the Trump friendly section on our, on our login page. So we had cartoons on there that weren't bashing Trump because editors were praying for those and begging those for us. We were all glad to see Trump go for a variety of reasons, so we didn't have to let deal with this anymore. Dave Whamond: He's still Brian Fairrington: around though. Yes, he's still around. Daryl Cagle: I bet. Through this next campaign. We're still not gonna see him in cartoons though in the newspapers. The cartoonists will draw him, which is continuing Dave Whamond: frustration. It's therapeutic. You, you just need to get it outta your system. So even if no one prints it, you know, , you still have fun doing Daryl Cagle: it. So we had a cartoonist on kegel.com who would draw nothing but obscene trumps in obscene positions. And I had to talk to him, editorial cartoons are, uh, part of middle school curriculum. They're on the AP history test in eighth and 12th grade. We can't draw obscene Trump in these positions every [00:38:00] week. We can't do all the bodily fluids, you know, putting a bodily fluid in a cartoon meats, it never gets into a newspaper. You can't just drop bodily fluids. And, uh, he said, you're censoring me. You're a Trump guy. America has gone mad. I get that all the time. Accused of censorship, but I rarely censor anything. Mm-hmm. . Okay, so Jeff, you've got Santa's workshop. It's Christmas cartoon signing the window, says elves wanted, Mrs. Santa says this labor shortage is worse than we thought. And Santa says, maybe we'll have to send gift cards because the workshop is empty. We've gotta have labor shortage. That's very sad. You know what's Jeff Koterba: sad is that I, I drew this, what, I guess a couple of Christmases ago, and I drew this and I misread it and I said, why did I write? Elvis wanted Daryl Cagle: Elvis wanted, All right, here's grandpa [00:39:00] talking to granddaughter, and the computer says Watergate scandal, 50 years later. And grandpa says, Let's just say I'm glad we didn't have social media back then. That's cute. You know, the newspapers are for grandpa now, and everybody remembers Watergate scandal and they talk to their grandkids. You have maybe Jeff Koterba: my first Nick Nixon cartoon in print. Well, actually it isn't, but you know, I'm still, Hey, they're finally getting around, running my Nixon cartoons. At least that , they won't run Trump, but. Daryl Cagle: All right. This one is US Postal Service slows delivery. Little boy is bringing his box of Halloween stuff, but mom is doing the Christmas cards and mom says, yes, I can help decorate, but first time must get these Christmas cards in the mail. I've noticed that, uh, after Halloween, newspapers love the, it's so early to be talking about Christmas cartoons, and, the mixing together, Christmas and Thanksgiving and Halloween. This is what they love. Very good. Jeff Jeff Koterba: maybe gives me an i, it [00:40:00] gives me an idea. Darrell, maybe I'll Easter coming. Maybe I'll work in Christmas too. Somehow . Daryl Cagle: All right, here's your number 10 cartoon. Another big one. Back to school sale at the store. Uh, little daughter is, uh, carrying her heavy backpack, but mom is carrying the huge backpack with crushing weight, labeled inflation. And, boy, the newspapers love the inflation cartoons, the big heavy fat inflation cartoons. Very good Jeff. They're fun to Jeff Koterba: draw. They're fun to draw. Heavy weighted things are fun to draw. I dunno if you feel that way, Dave, but Oh, absolutely. There's just something about that. Yeah. The physicality of it, you know. Dave Whamond: I just say it always makes a nice, strong graphic image too, like a nice vignette to play with. Yeah. When you have that sort of Daryl Cagle: imagery. Yeah, he heaviest is fun to draw big and small. Okay, Dave, this is your most popular cartoon ever. And it's a time change cartoon and it's a New Year's cartoon [00:41:00] and, that's crossing two editor favorites and also it's, uh complaining about how bad things are cartoon, which is, another thing that editors love. You've combined them all here to make this fantastic popular cartoon. So the couple is sitting at the breakfast table. Uh, husband is reading the newspaper that says Daylight Savings has got Trump and Pelosi on the front of it. And the lady says, don't forget, we gain an hour this weekend. And the men says, does anyone really want an extra hour of 2020? This just hits every button, Dave. Yeah. Yeah. Brian Fairrington: That's a kill. Multiple birds with one stone in that cartoon. Dave Whamond: That's funny cuz I, I thought this was kind of a weak cartoon, so I almost didn't do it. And here it's the top selling one. So, you know, I still don't know what I'm doing after all these years. So , Daryl Cagle: I think Dave Whamond: every year I can just put in 21 and then 22. You can't ever reuse this one. Daryl Cagle: Every [00:42:00] taste for sure. Dave Whamond: Yeah. Jeff Koterba: Jeff Mcn, the wonderful, amazing, brilliant editor cartoonist, uh, had a tax related cartoon. Mm-hmm. of someone filling out a tax form and every year he's a copy of the 10 40 with the new Yeah, yeah. With the new, the new a different year on it. . Yeah. Daryl Cagle: So here you've got, uh, the changing of the lattes out in front of the Starbucks, the big. Eggnog latte is changing with the pumpkin spice latte like they do, uh, in England at the Queen's house. And this is just so cute. Pumpkin la Spice latte. Pumpkin spice in cartoons is just crazy popular with editors. If you see any kind of reference to pumpkin spice in a cartoon, that just , makes it really please the editors. Brian Fairrington: I think one of, uh, Rick Mc, unless you put top, top cartoons, was a pumpkin spice cartoon, so Yeah. Oh, right. Jeff Koterba: Unless you combine Trump with pumpkin spice and then, Daryl Cagle: oh, [00:43:00] yeah, Dave Whamond: yeah. So this, this one was fun, or I was just gonna say that one was fun to dry. I, uh, came up with the idea of putting the little sizzle sticks at the end, so I thought that that kind of punched it up a bit more too. So, Everyone knows the green sizzle sticks, right? So, yeah. Jeff Koterba: Yes. And I love how you strategically, strategically covered up Starbucks. We still know what it is, but Daryl Cagle: that's great. But actually if you read it, it says sucks. Yeah. . It does. Dave Whamond: Unintentional. But you're right, it does, Daryl Cagle: you know, all we get letters from people that point out these, uh, things that they discover, that they, uh, they think are hidden messages. So, it's important to deny them every so often, I guess. Mm-hmm. . here you've got the lady standing by the front door and she's afraid to go outside. She's all agoraphobic. It says pandemic anxiety, meet post pandemic anxiety. And she's got thoughts in her head saying, wait, I forget. How do I function in society again? I haven't worn pants since [00:44:00] March, and all my shirts are now crop tops. How do I greet people? Hugs. Elbows. And what do I say? I read outta things to talk about around May. What are restaurants again? My diet has been cheese strings, pop Tarts, , the world was a scary place. Dave Whamond: I've erased all this from my memory now. You know, I don't remember the pandemic the last two or three years are all sort of, uh, wiped, wiped off my, uh, memory. So, but that's the thoughts that were going through my head at the time. Jeff Koterba: Dave, do you wear bunny slippers when you're drawing? I Dave Whamond: do not. No. Yeah, I do not. I should get some cuz I, I put 'em in a lot of cartoons, so I, I should, uh, step it up a little here. . Daryl Cagle: Okay. So this is a New Year's cartoon, and again, editors love these, uh, holiday cartoons. You've got an old man time labeled 2020 and, little baby new year. 2021 old man time with his side says, are you [00:45:00] sure you want to go out there? You wouldn't believe the things I've seened this past year. The little baby 2021 says, Hey, what happens in 2020 stays in 2020 Brian Fairrington: So that's a cartoon that could run every year. How, how tempted are you ever to just change the numbers and reissue it every couple of years? Dave Whamond: Sometimes I actually end up doing a cartoon that I completely forgot I've already done, and then, Years later, I'll say, oh, I already did that, like in 2015 or something. Now and then I'll reuse an image and alter it slightly and it'll be a whole new idea. But, uh, I try not to do that. I just redraw the things Jeff Koterba: so, . Yeah. Dave, what, what tools are you using to make your cartoons? Dave Whamond: Um, well, like you, I switched to digital. Um, I still do the actual drawing on paper, on pen and ink. I still prefer that and then I scan it. And, my medium used to be watercolor, so I found a program that replicates watercolor pretty closely to what, [00:46:00] uh, you can achieve on tra traditional media. And I really like it. It's way faster. You don't have to mix all the paints and cut the board and everything. And, um, when I do children's books and things like that, I find sometimes the editor say, I don't like that blue background. And then you got a, like, if you've done it in watercolor, you've got a, a big task ahead. Other, but with digital you can just take it out, put in new color. Yeah. Change the tone, you know, so it opens up a lot more. Uh, like you said, it changed my life quite a bit, so it could be a lot faster, . Daryl Cagle: Here we are at the gas station car. It's driving by and there's a huge snail moving very slowly toward the gas sign with what looks like a price rise for the gas prices in the man in the car. It says, have you ever noticed that they are just a little bit slower to change the gas prices when oil goes down? So true. By the way. So true . Jeff Koterba: Yeah. Dave Whamond: I hear everyone commenting every, every long [00:47:00] weekend they make this, the comment, right, that the gas goes shooting up, then oil prices will crash the next week and they, it's still the same price. Brian Fairrington: Yeah. They gotta float that profit as long as they can. Mm-hmm. . Daryl Cagle: Here you got a Christmas cartoon. Santa has, uh, the little kid on his lap laptop, rather than having the kid sitting on his lap and she says, all I want for Christmas is for things to be the way they used to be. And the elf is looking sad and sad is looking sad. And it's also sad. Dave Whamond: So here's an example where I did Jeff Koterba: reuse this cartoon. The tree is sad. Daryl Cagle: Yeah, the Dave Whamond: tree. Yeah, the tree. You don't want a saggy tree like that, I'm telling you. But this is where, an example where I reused the cartoon from the year before where the little kid wa was sitting on the Santa's lap. So I wanted to contrast the two. Now she's on the, on a laptop because of, uh, COVID. So Brian Fairrington: you mentioned you do a lot of children's book. Do, is that medium different than your editorial cartoons? Do [00:48:00] you approach it the same way? Uh, in terms of, the tools you use and the color and things like that, Dave Whamond: or Pretty much like I've, uh, it used to be two completely separate styles, but now I, um, it's pretty close to what you see there. And sometimes I'll work back into it with other things like chalk or whatever, but, uh, yeah, it's, uh, pretty much the feel of it there. So, Daryl Cagle: here's your Memorial Day cartoon. The kid is saluting at the grave and the shadow of the kid in the grave forms the salute back to him from the bygone soldier, and the grave says, never forget. And this is just very sad at moving and, uh, yeah, just the attitude that we should have on Memorial Day. Jeff Koterba: Drawing a Memorial Day cartoon is, is difficult because. it's, it's referencing an historic event, and unless there's something relatively new that you can tie into it, it's challenging to come up with something fresh. And this is a fresh take on it and a poignant image. And, uh, just, uh, really [00:49:00] beautiful in the background. The background is beautiful too. Just hinted at the, the other grave markers and the tree. Just lovely . Oh, thank Dave Whamond: you, Jeff. Gee. Yeah, this is one again, I, I wasn't sure about the idea, but I, I just, there's so many, um, it, it's hard to do something new. Um, so I, I didn't know if this was fresh or new or not, but it's just one of those things I thought, you know, I gotta, I have to do this. So I went ahead and, uh, Brian Fairrington: yeah. It represents a kind of cartoon that editors love because it, it celebrates patriotism and it's one, uh, universally that both left and right readers will appreciate. And there's no, mm-hmm. , there's no, uh, uh, partisanship in it. And it's just a great, uh, and as well as the way it's executed with the, the long shadow as a great, I mean, it's instantly understandable and, uh, , it's the kind of, it's the kind of cartoon people are gonna clip out and put on the refrigerator and, oh, I saw this as a wonderful cartoon. And, so yeah, that hits all the, hits all the marks for sure, for editors. Dave Whamond: Oh, thanks. Yeah. The, the shadow was tricky. I had a play around with that for quite a while. [00:50:00] Um, when you do a silhouette, you have to minimize the information you're seeing. So if you filled that in with the face and rendered the, uh, the body, it would look quite different. But because it's a silhouette, you can cheat a little bit and Right. And get the point across. Daryl Cagle: Okay. Yeah, it works well. Okay, here you've got a four panel cartoon and the man reading the newspaper, the woman's looking over his shoulder, the, the headlines changed on the news panel from panel to panel. And you know, if you're listening to this in audio only, you cannot fully appreciate how funny the wallpaper is and how funny her hair is, how funny her lips are. This is great. So the man is looking at the newspaper that says, worldwide Pandemic, and he says, well, it can't get any worse than this. And then in the next newspaper, January 6th, riots, attack on democracy. And he says, well, it can't get any worse than this. And the next panel, they're getting older [00:51:00] and the newspaper says, Russia invades Ukraine. And the man says, well, it can't get any worse than this. And then in the next frame, they're looking really old. He's got no more hair. And the newspaper says, Threat of nuclear war. The man says, well, it can't get any worse than this. The wife says, stop saying that. That's very funny. You know, the wife doesn't get older like the man does. Dave Whamond: Yeah. I, I, I was, uh, I think I just was trying to depict like we've all aged so much with everything that's gone on in the last, uh, two years or three years, but, uh, that's a good point. I should have maybe had her hair turning whiter or something. Jeff Koterba: I, Dave, I love how, I love the, the sort of the secondary punchline, if that's what you might call it. Stop saying that if I had drawn this protein, I don't know that I would've come up with that. I might've just said to be continued. I've done those kinds of cartoons where it's repeated and didn't be continued, uh, into infinity.[00:52:00] This is brilliant because, uh, it's just sort of a little extra twist at the end that I didn't, I didn't see coming when I first. Read this, uh, and it almost infers Yeah, it's, it's expressing her own frustration and infers somehow that maybe by his saying that he, somehow he has some kinda control or is impacting the world at large. And of course he's not, but, uh, it's her way of expressing it gives her voice too, rather than just being a, a, uh, somebody standing in the background. So that, that just brought, uh, it's my, it's one of my favorites, uh, out of this top 10 of yours. Daryl Cagle: Oh, thanks. You know, it's also true that these events were not that many years apart and the events, events are aging him. Mm-hmm. . Dave Whamond: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You think that's what's funny about it too, January 6th and then the, uh, Russia invading, like that's really a year apart, you know, so, right. , but yeah, this is almost based on my, uh, home life because, uh, sometimes I'll, being an editorial cartoonist, you're constantly on the. What's the latest news? And uh, I'll [00:53:00] repeat it to my wife and she'll, I'll say, well, you know, at least it can't get any worse than what's happening now. And She'll, and it's almost the same thing. She's like, every time you say that, it gets worse . So yeah. So, uh, it's almost a little slice of life there. So, and that's how if you Jeff Koterba: put out a cartoon , if you put out a cartoon collection soon, you should just call it, it couldn't get any worse than this. Daryl Cagle: I like it. Okay, so it's wintertime and the gal is at the door coming out to see her Amazon package delivered on the front steps. She's wearing a Santa hat. And at the top it says, when you drink wine and shop online, it's like, you're your own secret Santa. And she says, oh, for me, what did I get myself? This is, uh, one of those more bunny slippers. More bunny slippers, Dave? Oh, yes. With the bunny slipper slippers. Yeah. Dave Whamond: I'll have to put 'em in every cartoon, I guess now. Jeff Koterba: Well, I mean, maybe they're in the box. She's ordered more. Yeah. Brian Fairrington: holiday, sho holiday shopping cartoons, black Friday [00:54:00] cartoons. Those over the last decade have become increasingly popular with editors. They look at those as, as, as part of the holiday tradition, and so they want those along with Santa cartoons. And so this plays right into that for sure. Dave Whamond: And, and this is a sort of, again, a slice of life. My wife ordered some stuff online and, uh, wasn't that she, she was drinking wine at the time. I threw that in, but she kind of forgot what she ordered, and the package showed up and she's like, oh, I wonder what this is, right. He's like, you know, so I thought, Hey, you know, as a cartoonist, you're always, you know, bing, there's the idea right there. Right, right. Yeah. So, So again, it's, it's funny, the, the ones that, uh, that hit or are popular, it's, they always surprise me sometimes when yeah, like, I wouldn't have picked these as the top 10, but, Brian Fairrington: Your idea of top 10 versus what the Public is always different. Yeah, for sure. For Daryl Cagle: sure. I get car complaints about cartoonists, about the, from cartoonists, about what's in the, the top 10. Yeah. Um, a lot of them really don't like the top 10. Some of them, [00:55:00] um, they draw very nice cartoons, but they don't ever show up in the top 10. And that's very frustrating for a lot of cartoonists. You know, we've got 60 cartoonists and there's only 10 in the top. 10 and half of them are taken up by you. Two guys. Well, Jeff Koterba: maybe those guys who are frustrated are drawing really great, hard hitting cartoons and that's no reflection on them because mm-hmm. , I see the work of other people that aren't getting in. They talk and they're doing fantastic work. It's not their fault. It's because editors, you know, with all due respect, uh, so that's no reflect. So, hey guys, if you're doing those cartoons, uh, much respect. So Well, it is, and a guy like me who doesn't have a newspaper job anymore, uh, I, I'm supported on Patreon, but I rely on a syndication to help get me through. So, uh, I wish if I just had a newspaper platform and I could just draw hard hitting cartoons all the time, I, I probably would. Brian Fairrington: Mm-hmm. . It illustrates the great debate that's been going on for decades now of, of hard hitting versus the sort of the [00:56:00] Tonight Show, standup, you know. cartoonists wanna be considered hard-hitting journalists and they want the Pulitzer Prize. But, uh, those cartoons, the editors don't care about and the public doesn't care about. They want the cute cartoons. And we've all done it. We've all gone some places, and they, you know, to talk to classrooms or talk to people. And what do they ask us? Hey, can you draw Garfield? Can you draw Snoopy? Mm-hmm. , you know, they don't really care about what you, they just want you to do that because, you know, they look at that is what, what's popular. And so, um, there's always that disconnect between what gets running and what's what's, um, what we consider. And Jeff Koterba: If you draw Snoopy on the chalkboard before, be sure to write the apologies to Schultz. Daryl Cagle: Bottom . Yeah. Dave Whamond: Yeah. And, and if, uh, if you want a cartoon, put a put a bunny slippers in if you want to go in the top. Daryl Cagle: Okay. So, Here you've got the inside of an airplane and uh, Stewart says, yelling at the people into the airplane. Hell, is there anybody on board who knows how to fly a [00:57:00] plane? And the guy's sitting in the front seat with his phone says, uh, but this plane hasn't even left the ground yet. And she says, I know, because we have no pilot staff shortages. You know, you're illustrating the headlines here. And, uh, that's just what newspapers like . Dave Whamond: One thing I have trouble is drawing the inside of a plane. So when I get an idea like this is like, oh man, you know, I, I find it hard to space the, the, the seat so you can see what's going on. Like, technically this would be wrong cuz they'd have people where the, uh, bottom bubble is, there'd be people. Covering her up, but you know, you have to kind of cheat a little bit, I guess, and Brian Fairrington: well, it works for your style and it, and I don't think anybody would question that. You pulled it off wonderfully and it, it compliments your style and, it works. Daryl Cagle: So. Oh, thanks. Very nice. Inside of a plane. gentlemen, we are, we are at the end of our top 10 and each of your top tens, [00:58:00] thank you so much for being here. Thank you to Jeff Koterba, the brilliant cartoonist from Nebraska, and thank you to, uh, Dave Wman, the brilliant cartoonist from Calgary, Canada. Thank you guys to my, brilliant executive editor Brian Farrington from Phoenix, Arizona, and from me and Los Angeles. Thank you everybody. Uh, that's it. Remember to subscribe and remember to visit Cagle.com to, see all the cartoons. Visit Caglecast.com to see all of our history of podcasts, which is growing every week. We will see you next time with our next episode, which will be about artificial intelligence cartoons. , and our brilliant cartoonist, Rick McKee. So, Thank you and goodbye, gentlemen. Yep. Thanks guys for having me. Thanks guys. Thank you.