Daryl Cagle: This is the Caglecast where we're all about editorial cartoons.
And today we're joined by two of our most conservative cartoonists, Gary
McCoy, who also draws two comic strips, The Duplex and The Flying McCoys, and
Rivers, who draws anonymously and joins us with a disguise and an altered voice.
And we have liberal cartoonist Pat Byrnes, who's best known for
his cartoons in The New Yorker.
He draws all kinds of gag cartoons for other magazines.
He did a comic strip for years called Monkey House, and he's an advertising
illustrator who's won a bunch of awards.
And I am Daryl Cagle, your liberal cartoonist host.
So we are evenly divided today.
Gentlemen, it's great to have you all here.
Good to see you.
Gary McCoy: Thanks.
Good to be here.
We're in this thing together.
Daryl Cagle: Gary, we're starting off with you.
Here you've got, , dad coming in and he says, I cut out our own
catalytic converter to sell for scrap so we can buy groceries.
Kid says, "Daddy, president Biden says he's doing a good job.
Rivers: I just noticed her knees.
Gary McCoy: Oh, my knees are like two little,
Rivers: yeah,
Gary McCoy: her knees.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
I somehow in my early cartooning, I, picked up a little knobby, Knee thing
and I still throw it in there sometime.
Yeah, I'm not I'm not really good with uh with female anatomy
My my wife would tell you that
Daryl Cagle: Here Rivers Donkey Democrat says, "Wait, what?
Why?"
And the impeach Joe Biden Republican elephant says, "Revenge is best served
cold, my friend."
Rivers: uh, yeah, the Republicans have been kind of hinting at the, the idea
that they might try to impeach Biden
Daryl Cagle: Well, interestingly, I think you labeled this conservative, you
know, these go into a special section on our site called conservative cartoons
because the conservative editors don't, notice them unless we point them out.
They think, there's such, a huge wave of, liberal cartoons that they
look at them and they say there's nothing but liberal cartoons.
And so we point out so that when they say that we can say, look, here they are.
I don't think
Pat Byrnes: it's a Trojan horse message.
Daryl Cagle: I could have called this a liberal cartoon, because
there's no real reason to impeach Joe Biden, except revenge.
Rivers: Well, at that time, perhaps.
I think, I think I'm having audio problems.
Gary McCoy: No, I think.
Uh, something's wrong.
I guess where you said there's no reason to impeach Joe Biden.
All right.
Sorry.
Oh, that could
Daryl Cagle: that could be crazy.
Rivers: Yeah, no, I think that the evidence is starting to pile up that uh,
Joe is getting money for different things Uh for China from from different from
Burisma places that uh, we don't know what he did what he did for that money
Daryl Cagle: and we don't We don't know that he's gotten that money.
Pat Byrnes: Well, you know what?
Why doesn't
he
Pat Byrnes: release his tax returns?
Where are Joe Biden's tax returns?
He, he won't show them, will he?
He won't, they're hidden.
We can't see them.
Rivers: Yeah.
And I remember that was a big deal.
And then when, when, uh, Trump revealed his tax returns.
It was like a big nothing burger.
What was he hiding?
Daryl Cagle: I don't recall that Trump revealed his tax returns.
They were kind of revealed for him.
Rivers: They were revealed for him, but then it was like a big nothing burger.
It was like, Oh, there's nothing here.
Well, let's move on.
Um, I
Pat Byrnes: think in Manhattan, they, they have a different spin on that
because he's got some tax fraud issues.
He's, he's dealing with there.
Rivers: But is that yeah, so and
Pat Byrnes: they stem from the tax return.
Rivers: Okay.
Well, we'll see because we've had we've had some misfires on that too.
So, as far as Joe
Gary McCoy: Biden go, on the tax form when you file your taxes, is there a line where
you list the shell companies that you get?
laundering money and that too.
Daryl Cagle: Actually, there is.
You have to list every foreign company that you have any, kind
of interest in relationship with every foreign currency account.
Pat Byrnes: And when you have a bunch of LLC, when you have a bunch of
LLCs, you got to file your K ones.
Gary McCoy: Well, there you go.
What am I, I mean, tens of million dollars to the big guy.
There can't be anything wrong there because Joe would have
listed it on his tax returns.
My gosh.
Sure, he would have.
Sorry about that.
Pat Byrnes: Well, I think all that should be, I think all that should be looked into
and they should get, you know, get the sworn testimony, get the evidence out.
Let's, let's let transparency, the little bit of sunshine.
We'll clear that up one way or the other.
And I think, sure, put it up there..
Daryl Cagle: There's just so much talk on the right about, uh, all this
Biden crime family stuff as though the wishful thinking makes it actually true.
Gary McCoy: But Daryl, do you, do you not see any...
Anything wrong at all with, uh, everyone in his family, practically down to his,
plumber getting millions of dollars from communist Chinese companies and
Ukrainian oil companies when they have no experience in that his, his, well,
Daryl Cagle: I don't know about his plumber, but I, I certainly read all
this stuff about Hunter Biden and what
Gary McCoy: does Ashley, what does Ashley Biden, uh, what are her
skills on, uh, on the, on the, uh, international business scheme?
What is, what does she know that she would be getting millions of
dollars from a Ukrainian company for?
Daryl Cagle: I'm not seeing any Ashley stuff, but, my feeling about Hunter
Biden is, he's, a drug addict loser.
And, I have no, no real sympathy for him except, uh, that I would have for
other errant drug addicts, and he has the distinction of having a, famous
father, which allows him to feed his
Pat Byrnes: He also had the famous brother and I think that that was a
huge well the timing says and people close to him say that that was a huge
issue Beau Biden was the golden boy.
He was truly the golden child.
Everyone considered him a great guy.
He was military, uh, multi decorated.
He was, an attorney general, the attorney generals, uh, in the U.
S., both sides admired him, trusted him, believed in him.
And when he died, it was considered, like, that was brutal.
And when he died, Hunter fell apart and, did some things
that, uh, you shouldn't want
to do.
Gary McCoy: I, I, I'm with you there, pat, all the way up to the point where, where
it seems like you're excusing Hunter's problems on merely grief and mourning.
I mean, I, I admit,
Pat Byrnes: well, I'm not excusing them.
I'm not excusing 'em.
I'm trying to understand, but No, I don't.
And, and where they, where they kind of begin and say, all right,
everything he did, he, he is still responsible for everything he did.
However, we also got a note that, he wasn't just a name.
He served on the Amtrak board of directors.
He was appointed by George W.
Bush.
He's a Yale law grad.
So he's not a dummy.
I mean, he's a screw up right now.
There's no one's gonna, I mean, even his dad's got to admit at least
privately that he's a screw up, but.
The dad says he's not without talent.
Gary McCoy: the smartest guy he's known.
Sorry, Rivers.
Rivers: Yeah.
Yeah.
So I was going to point out there's this sidebar that he's also in
the same law firm as, the current judge for, uh, Trump's trial.
Uh, what's her name again?
Chid, Chid, Chid, Chid, Aileen Cannon.
Uh, no, Ch Ch Chicken?
Pat Byrnes: There's so many, it's hard
Rivers: to, hard to keep them straight.
Is it Chutkan?
Chutkan, I think it is.
Anyways, uh, he, he was with her in the same law firm for a number of years.
So, there's connections there.
And that's why, I did a cartoon this week that pointed out that she's not
exactly, an objective type of person.
we've got somebody who's really enmeshed in the politics.
onto the next,
Daryl Cagle: you guys jumped ahead to Hunter.
so, rivers, here's your, uh, hunter's laptop, nothing.
Burger.
Rivers: He's nothing if not predictable.
It's a nothing burger.
No, I should, I, I got the, I got it backwards.
It should be, it's a nothing burger.
And then he says, uh, he's nothing if not predictable, which is so
every, so he made it unpredictable.
Every, every.
And I see this in social media, every time the conservatives or the, or
the Republicans have something on, on Hunter or, or Joe or whoever.
Hillary.
It's a nothing burger.
It's it's it's could be really good.
Like, for instance, the Twitter files were were actually important.
It was an important disclosure.
It's a nothing burger with Hunter Biden's laptop.
It was it was a nothing burger.
But when Hunter Biden's laptop, what we're seeing is connections
that Joe had to the business.
And they are quite
Daryl Cagle: well, the reason it's a nothing burger for me is that He's a
jerk and he's a drug addict and I have a little bit of sympathy for people
who have kids or people in the family who are vile and, That's not Joe Biden
that's being vile, that's Joe Biden that's saddled with a son who's a drug
addict that's, that's feeding his habit, on his relationship with Joe Biden.
And, uh, you know, that's, that's a plague that you have with your,
uh, big important guy celebrity that other people can feed off of that.
And, all right, but that doesn't make Joe Biden.
Rivers: Daryl, you're missing the point.
You're missing the point of the laptop.
It's not about the nudie photos.
It's not about the prostitution.
It's about his connection, his business connections, with Hunter's, uh, so
called, you know, associates that, uh, somehow funneled money, uh, through
these different shell companies.
Uh, there's, there, there are emails in there that are very damning and,
and, and, and show us evidence.
As much evidence as, as, The recent indictments, uh, against, uh, Donald
Trump for, for, you know, asking for a phone number for January 6th.
The, the, these, these may not be like the smoking gun, uh, but they certainly
do add up to evidence that shows that, uh, Joe Biden was an active participant.
In Hunter Biden's activities.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, I'm not seeing that.
I'm seeing your wishful thinking about this expand into the idea
that it's actually evidence of that.
I haven't seen that.
Pat Byrnes: Chapter and verse kind of, I'm hearing the accusation
made, but I'm not seeing.
Daryl Cagle: Make the accusation enough times and then it becomes true.
Gary McCoy: Like Rivers said, there's a laptop out there with emails.
Have you seen the Devin Archer interview or the one he did?
Okay.
And it's, it's obvious, you know, Hunter can't be both this, this poor, sufferable.
You know, grief stricken, kid who just messed up
Pat Byrnes: and functioning drug addict.
Daryl Cagle: Yeah, he's, he's truly vile.
And, there's no minimizing that.
And that's, uh, you know, that's, that's no benefit to bringing money to Joe Biden.
That's just the, the big anchor on his presidency.
Gary McCoy: He travels on Air Force One to China with his dad
while his dad says he doesn't.
know anything about his business dealings?
he's been raking in money, millions of dollars on, uh, Ukrainian energy
company when he has no education, no knowledge or anything about that aspect.
If he's on the board, what about?
Uh, all these connections that he's got are all through his family and his father.
Joe Biden willingly let his name be played as this kind of power
tool and to get the family rich off of, and he was . Well, what I'm
Daryl Cagle: hearing you say is that there is actual evidence of Joe
Biden putting bribes in his pocket.
There's as much evidence to
Gary McCoy: that.
Daryl Cagle: What I'm seeing is that there's a, kid who's a complete
wreck who's dragging him down.
And I have a little bit of sympathy for that, but not a lot of sympathy.
I'd like to see Hunter Biden thrown in jail.
Um, but I have a, you know, I have a little bit of sympathy for drug
addicts and the shenanigans they pull to make their lives go along.
Well, of course, he's going to do that because that his dad's the president.
Um, that's, unfortunate.
Gary McCoy: Okay.
So this cartoon speaks to Joe Biden's character.
So do you want to, yes,
Daryl Cagle: this goes on to the, uh, unrecognized grand kid.
and grand kid, standing to Joe Biden, who's walking away from her.
And she says, grandpa.
Joe Biden turns around and has a big, pretty racist looking, Mexican, mustache
along the, style of, Sergio Aragones.
That's what I was thinking of.
Glasses, not a joke.
I, I'm not quite sure where you're going with this, Gary.
Gary McCoy: Okay.
Can I, can I talk then since, uh, first off to address the racist mustache,
you're totally joking, Daryl, right?
I mean, or is it that you think Joe Biden
Daryl Cagle: Well, it's not like you, it's not like you put on a
Groucho Glasses nose mustache on him.
You put a very Mexican mustache on him.
Gary McCoy: I never, honestly, never in my wildest dreams associated that
particular mustache with, uh, Latino or
Daryl Cagle: the Mexican culture.
you just said you were thinking of Sergio Aragones when you drew it.
Gary McCoy: I, no, I didn't say that.
I, play back the tape.
I didn't say that.
You said that, Daryl, actually, to be fair.
You did.
Daryl Cagle: Oh, I, I guess I did say that.
Gary McCoy: You two have a mind meld.
But maybe you're, look, I, I see what you're doing there.
You might, you're connecting Joe's.
Speak in Spanish with the mustache.
I never even made that connection myself.
The mustache to me is merely disguise,
Pat Byrnes: not just maybe conscious, maybe, but the the, the
connection is, is in, is it's, it's
Gary McCoy: okay.
I guess if you, you know, I guess if you see, if you live on that side of
the fence where you see everything through a racial lens, then yeah, I get
Pat Byrnes: it.
through a cartoonist lens where we see...
Daryl Cagle: Let me ask you separately.
Why is he speaking Spanish to the little girl?
Gary McCoy: Because he's trying to conceal his identity, Daryl.
And I tell you, I could have used my wife's Filipino language, but it would
have been more lost on most people.
So I went with like, you know, the most simple, most common.
Second language, you could think of, uh, the little bit that I know
and figured that was what I would use for Joe to conceal his identity.
I could have went with, uh, you know, Kazakhstan or, you know,
Nigeria or some other foreign country and use their language.
But.
I went with him speaking in Spanish.
So you
Daryl Cagle: went with that entirely randomly.
Uh, there was no reason for it except that it was a disguise.
Gary McCoy: Wacky coincidence.
Wacky coincidence.
No, no, Joe.
No, Joe Biden.
Okay, no, Daryl.
I did it because I wanted to, uh...
Send a dog whistle to all my Klansmen followers out there to kind of rally
the troops to uh, Oh goodness gracious
Pat Byrnes: Coincidence just an unfortunate coincidence.
Did it
Gary McCoy: the guy with the biracial child?
Who's got a black cousins?
who Yeah, I'm a Republican, so I'm a racist.
I guess we get down, if we can, if you can go from A to B or A to Z that quickly,
but you can't see that Joe Biden is tainted with tons of corruption through
all these forced business dealings.
I'm, I'm, I'm flabbergasted.
Pat Byrnes: He went 50 years without a whisper of corruption, all except
for like, oh, that, that report.
Joe
Rivers: Biden?
Yeah.
Joe Biden?
Gary McCoy: Plagiarism.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the
Pat Byrnes: plagiarism from, what year was
Gary McCoy: that?
Oh, was it not in the 50 years?
It was
Rivers: longer than 50 years ago?
Yeah, it was like 1989 or something.
You're
Daryl Cagle: talking about that plagiarism scandal as being in
the same league as taking bribes?
Gary McCoy: I think it's in the same league as a cartel.
I think...
I don't want my kids going to school in a racial...
I don't want my kids going to school in a racial jungle.
Is what he said.
Daryl Cagle: Are you still mad at Fareed Zakariia and Doris Kearns Goodwin?
Pat Byrnes: He's hitting on something that's actually important.
Yes, Joe Biden was slow.
Slow to evolve in as, you know, working class white guy realizing,
Ooh, yeah, we do have a bigger problem with race in this country than,
than I was giving you credit for.
He was slow.
But he got there and so yeah, he said some things that were today.
We would look at him go like that wasn't exactly Woke
Gary McCoy: he wasn't we look at today and go that's that's a that's a racist guy.
Rivers: That was racist Yeah, what he said in the past was racist.
Well, I
Daryl Cagle: don't know what it was I don't like Joe Biden.
I don't like him.
I never vote for him.
I only vote against the other guy.
And I never forgave him for the Clarence Thomas hearings where he
was so vile and nasty to Anita Hill.
And, uh, I can't get over that.
I look at him and I see that.
There's plenty to not like about Joe Biden.
Liberals despise Joe Biden because he doesn't step up on all the issues
that they think he should step up for.
And I feel the same way.
Tons of reasons not to like Joe Biden.
So, when you're arguing, characterizing us as liking Joe Biden, no, I mean, it's
hard to find people that like Joe Biden.
Pat Byrnes: Naw a lot of people like Joe Biden.
I mean, he's a very likable guy as a human.
That is true.
Daryl Cagle: Okay, well, we found
Rivers: one.
No, and actually, you know, you're right.
You know, this may surprise you, but before I became a conservative, I
was very much a liberal, and I liked Joe Biden, and I always thought he
had a good shot at being president.
Uh, and I was truly disappointed he didn't run in 2016, because I thought
he would have been a very viable, candidate compared to Hillary Clinton.
But we're still at the beginning of this whole process of discovering exactly what
he's been up to these past few years.
So before we we basically sanctify him as holy and, give him some kind of, pass.
We have to recognize that the guy is probably.
Been doing things that are a little bit on the shady side.
I don't know for sure, but, uh, he
Pat Byrnes: probably has, but I don't know.
Rivers: Yeah.
I don't know.
Well, you know, I don't know for sure.
I have trouble.
Pat Byrnes: This is what I have trouble with and whichever direction
a finger is pointed to say, making the, Oh, they gotta be crooked.
This whole assumption that somebody is in the public eye, they have to be crooked.
Rivers: Well, how do you feel about Trump?
How do you feel about Trump?
Because in this is this exact same settle, this is the exact same
accusation I can make towards you, uh, regarding Trump, which is you
assume that the guy is a bad guy.
You assume he, the court found him to be a rapist.
He's guilty of everything.
You know, you assume that he's been, he's guilty of every
indictment that that is out there.
And the the reality is,
Pat Byrnes: I'm not assuming that he's guilty of every indictment.
You don't know that, I'm assuming I'm saying that.
Okay, they have this evidence, let's.
Get it out.
Let's see how it plays in court.
Rivers: Exactly, and that's why I'm saying we need to, we
need to follow up on Joe Biden.
Now, my, my suspicion, my suspicion is that the guy,
he has been a little corrupt.
There has been things that he's been doing on the, on the side.
That said, there's no proof of it at the moment.
Present and some evidence would help.
I am not, I'm not, I'm not.
You I'm not part of the, uh, I'm not part of that process, I don't have
the ability to investigate, Joe Biden.
Daryl Cagle: So here we've got Gary and Joe Biden is talking to a little
black boy who's thinking Ku Klux Klan.
And Joe Biden says, " Don't worry if you can't get into Harvard
because of the Supreme Court ruling against affirmative action.
I'll give you a job holding a lantern in my front yard."
I should say, Gary, this is a cartoon that I'm sure no newspaper printed just because
it's got a Ku Klux Klan hood in it.
And any reference to Ku Klux Klan gets, uh, gets a cartoon not printed.
But assuming someone saw this, um, they're seeing you call Biden, uh, a racist.
And, uh, what, uh, what did you have in mind here except
for calling Biden a racist?
Gary McCoy: That was basically it.
He, he's a blatant racist and the media overlooks it.
So, I forgot about that, what you said about KKK.
So I shouldn't have done that, but I actually did that because I
thought, well, the way the knee jerk reactionaries on the left will react.
Well, they'll try to say, well, that's me being a racist.
So I thought the KKK hood was like a.
Daryl Cagle: Well, they won't have that reaction because nobody's going
to see the cartoon, I've got a few
Gary McCoy: thousand Facebook friends.
So although probably a few hundred of them have unfriended me, those that were
on the left that didn't like my politics.
I mean, that's, it's just the way it is.
I mean, he's about as veiled of a racist As.
you know, Barack Obama is the first, what'd he say?
Barack Obama is the first clean, articulate guy we,
you know, to run for office.
Black guy, I mean, I'll, I'll call Trump out for being, you know, a, a
flounder, you know, he's a, he's a cad.
He's, you know, got all the moral failings you could throw on the guy, but
I don't know how you guys can look at Joe Biden and, and play like you don't see.
The reality in front of you that he's a racist are even now that he's
not competent to lead the country.
You know, he's not competent.
Yeah, I'm not seeing it.
You're not seeing
Daryl Cagle: I don't see that he's a racist.
Gary McCoy: He's just a puppet.
I mean, I think we all would have to acknowledge that he can't, he
can't puppet of what a puppet.
Susan Rice, Barack Obama, you know, anybody behind him who's
not out at the camera, people pulling the strings for him.
Daryl Cagle: He's a, he's a, puppet of anybody behind him?
Gary McCoy: Do you guys really, do you guys really think Joe Biden at this age?
He can't, he can't even speak.
He can't even pronounce words anymore.
He can't talk without a teleprompter.
It's obvious his people are hiding him as much as they can.
When he goes out, he gives the same old speech every single time about his father
at the kitchen table and trickle down.
Never happened to me.
I could almost.
I could almost recite his speeches verbatim pretty soon and you
guys don't see any of that.
Seriously.
You just think, well, he's doing a good job.
I
Rivers: don't know.
I don't see it.
They don't.
They don't see it.
And the reason why is because the media that they watch don't
actually show those clips.
Well, I watch, I
Daryl Cagle: watch some Fox.
I don't know.
Rivers: I see a lot of docs about.
If you'd see, no, but if you'd seen, yeah.
If you'd seen those clips, you'd actually, you'd actually
know what Gary's talking about.
And the problem is, is that you think that you know more than you do.
Because you don't know half of what's out there.
And I think, and I a...
Daryl Cagle: I watch Fox as well, and I see a lot on Fox about...
Uh, criticizing Biden's speech and how he stumbles and such things.
And, you know, he grew up, uh, stuttering and I hear a lot of the
stuttering still in his voice, a lot of the stammers and the pauses.
Um, and I think a lot of that is being called out on Fox as, incompetence
and dementia, rather than just being familiar with his background.
Pat Byrnes: No, he's, yeah, he's, I, I used to watch, uh, you know,
PBS NewsHour back in the 90s when he was, um, he was on there quite a lot.
And yeah, his, his mouth is, uh, well, they say both his greatest asset,
asset and his greatest liability.
But I'm, I'm, I'm curious, I, tell me more about me.
I, I find that fascinating.
I, and I, I mean that seriously , because I mean, I, what, what should I be
Rivers: watching?
Well, I don't know.
So what do you watch?
How do you get your news?
I read.
No, okay, what does, okay, that's obvious.
What do you read?
Pat Byrnes: I, I read, New York Times, Washington Post.
I read Fox News.
I actually
Rivers: read Fox News.
Yeah.
Fox News
website.
Website.
Do you follow anything?
I don't watch
Pat Byrnes: the, I don't watch the TV programs, but I read
the articles and I read op eds.
Um, I, uh, occasionally the Atlantic and Wall Street Journal articles.
Um, I listen to NPR when I drive.
Rivers: Okay.
So the reason why I, I questioned, uh, you know, your, your, what you're,
what you're, where you're getting your sources is that it's pretty much
out there that, um, you know, Joe Biden constantly flubs things up.
His conversation is often, he has all forever.
Yeah.
Right.
So, and.
Also, in the past, I mean, he's made some very racist remarks.
I mean, it's pretty obvious that this guy does have some, um, a background
that, that does lend itself to criticism.
And I think that for people who...
Yeah, he grew up, he grew up some...
Yeah, sure, sure.
Yeah, but here's the thing.
He's got all those old...
Okay, okay, okay.
Fine, but you know what, if you, if you, okay, so, but if you guys get
the, uh, if you have the privilege of criticizing Trump for being a
racist, um, which, you know, I, I think that he's said some things that
kind of could be interpreted that way.
Uh, certainly when he came down and he said, you know, Mexico
is not sending their best.
Um, you know, if you read it animals, I think animals was the word.
Yeah, but he's he wasn't talking about all Mexicans.
And I think if you take it in the context of what he was talking about, and he
did clarify it the next day because it was clear that it had gone south.
The question is, is that, you know, Trump has been A very, very good, uh, advocate
of people of different backgrounds, including, uh, uh, gays, um, and yet
it's, you know, people who are gay, who are transsexuals, who really, really hate
Trump because they say he's a homophobe.
He's, uh, he's a racist.
They don't have any evidence for that.
The guy has been in show business for years.
He was friends with some of the biggest names in celebrities.
They all loved him.
And then when he ran for president, for some reason in
2015, he suddenly became a racist.
Now, how did that happen?
Daryl Cagle: He has evolved.
He, he used to be a very pro abortion rights.
Uh, there's a lot of these, areas where, Trump has changed.
Actually, when I was living In New York in the 70s, he was a very
interesting character in town, and, he did his Wollman, ice rink thing, I,
I thought he had a pretty good positive image, and he was a liberal Democrat.
I kind of liked him.
Rivers: Yeah, no, and I think that's the thing is that if, if you're going
to criticize one side and say, well, Trump is a racist and he's a homophobe
and he's got, he's got all these attributes that you guys love to nail
him for, then, then why is it that, that we can't take something from Joe
Biden's past and use it against him?
Why is that fair?
Daryl Cagle: I think the, the distinction that I would make is
that when we criticize Trump, the reaction from the right is to
say, yeah, but what about Biden?
And I don't like Biden either.
It's not like I'm defending Biden.
Gary McCoy: Well, you know, people talk about Trump.
Some of your criticism about Trump is his lies.
I see nothing.
But the number of lies that the media has tallied for Trump, yet
Biden is just as big of a liar.
He lies, every day.
He lies about...
Pat Byrnes: Just as big.
Can we get some numbers on that?
Gary McCoy: Just as big what?
I'm sure...
No, because the media, the media doesn't keep track of the Biden
lies like they did for Trump.
So I can't give you any numbers.
Pat Byrnes: There's no right leaning media out there that
would, that would have an interest.
Gary McCoy: There's a lot more left.
There's a lot more left leaning media, a lot more left leaning media.
You got ABC, CBS, NBC, CS, CNBC, MSNBC, CNN.
And, uh, you got what Fox news on the, on the right and a little
fledgling station on, on the internet, uh, Newsmax or whatever it is.
Biden said he saw the bridge in Pittsburgh collapse just yesterday.
I mean, this guy will get up there and just say anything that he thinks
will make him sound empathetic to people, even if it's like a bullet.
You
Daryl Cagle: think that's, you think that's the basis of, of this argument is
the, what about ism, that the criticism of Trump leads you to, want to make
all the same claims about, uh Biden?
Why does Biden come up always in response to criticism of, of the right?
Gary McCoy: Biden is the president.
He's been the president for the past.
Three years almost, and the country's in terrible shape demonstrably.
And so we should be talking about Biden pretty much as far as I'm
concerned, should be the only topic because anything revolving around
Donald Trump is inconsequential.
To how this country's doing how people are
Daryl Cagle: and yet we're all obsessed with Trump and you watch the news or
there's a lot more Trump than Biden
Rivers: and that's actually a very good point that that Gary is as made and
the part that that frustrates me and watching our website, CagleCartoons.com.
Is that you guys, the way that liberals cartoon Trump, you would
think that he is the president.
It's been like this for seven years.
It's Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.
Uh, even when he wasn't president, they don't bother drawing a single line.
cartoon about Biden.
Um, if they do, it's, uh, often kind of like a soft, soft
Daryl Cagle: Well, remember the, remember the distinction between drawing cartoons
and what cartoons you see in print.
I think I've demonstrated to everybody that when you draw Trump, your
cartoon is unlikely to get reprinted.
We put up the, the 10, uh, top cartoons of the week every week for, uh, that I send
to you guys by email every week so you can see what's actually getting printed.
And you guys, I'll see You guys know very well that those Trump
cartoons were not getting printed.
Um, so, you know, there's a big distinction between what cartoonists
draw and what they want to draw and what's actually in the liberal media.
And, uh, you know, making the argument that you guys are drawing
this, um, is not, is not at all related to what's in the newspaper.
Gary McCoy: um, I mean, Daryl, my cartoons been up for a while
and I don't want to hog the time.
So, uh.
Some of Pat and River's stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
Pat Byrnes: Let him take some pot shots at me for a while.
Gary McCoy: Okay.
Daryl Cagle: Pat, tell us about this one.
Pat Byrnes: I'm taking one slogan, America, love it or
leave it, and responding.
Americans, love them or leave them be.
This is, a divide I wish I didn't have to see.
And I'd be grateful.
For, any ideas on how to bridge that divide?
Rivers: Okay, stop demonizing, people on the right
. We'd start with that.
Okay.
And I think that's been happening a lot on Cagle's, uh, website.
That's partly the reason why I came back to editorial cartooning.
It's cause I used to be apolitical.
And what I see is a lot of, uh, drawings of toothless, mega people.
Uh, demonized, they're stupid, they're racist, they're this, they're that.
But you know what?
We all hate racists, don't we?
So naturally the idea is to continue to, to hammer that down that, that
everybody who voted for Trump or everybody who thinks Trump is an okay
guy is somehow secretly in the KKK.
We need, we need to stop that.
We need to stop that rhetoric.
And it just keeps happening.
If we're going to, if we're going to have a country, Then you need to start
thinking about, what other people are thinking, what other people, you
know, some of their perspectives.
Certainly, when I make a cartoon, when I draw a cartoon, I'm
drawing it against, Biden.
He's a leader.
I've always drawn cartoons that are based on the leader of that time,
not on a particular people group.
Because once you start doing that, you've got, you've demonized a group, and now,
uh, you know, what, what can happen next?
Because once the words stop, once you, once you stop calling people or racist
and, and, uh, you know, basically, uh, Hitler and fascists and the worst
of the worst and white supremacists, you've got nothing left but violence.
Daryl Cagle: You don't see that among the conservative cartoonists, Rivers?
What?
What's that?
The demonizing groups.
Rivers: I don't see it.
I don't see them demon...
Give me an example of that.
Transgender.
No, no, because that's not...
Okay, so...
Certainly, I was criticized for that, but I certainly have not
been demonizing transgenders.
And, yeah, and I'm willing to, you know,
Daryl Cagle: a lot of that in...
Pat Byrnes: But a wide swath of Republican leaders do.
And,
Rivers: uh...
Who would that be?
And give me a quote.
Oh, I...
Give me a quote, right now.
Go look it up.
Oh,
Pat Byrnes: I'd have to look up quotes
Rivers: because I don't...
Yeah, I know, I know.
I'm sure.
But, but, uh, you like, uh, the thing is, is that you just challenged Gary
a couple of minutes ago that he didn't have, uh, uh, facts right then and there.
So, I mean, if we're gonna play this game, then, you know, play fair,
Pat Byrnes: do, do we does the satanic pedophiles phrase, have
you not heard that phrase at all?
Use?
Who's
Rivers: that?
Okay.
So, okay, so who said that?
Pat Byrnes: Uh, well, Marjorie Taylor Green says it with some frequency.
Gary McCoy: Okay, let's talk about this.
Daryl Cagle: Great.
So here's an example.
This is, uh,
Rivers: Gary's cartoon.
Oh, that's an attack on transphobia, right?
That's transphobia, Gary.
Holy cow, you're going right after them.
I want to hear that.
I want to hear that from you guys.
I want to hear this.
Yeah, this is going to be good.
So
Daryl Cagle: tell us about this, Gary.
Why do you have the transgender, uh, person in the beginning doing,
uh, a topless kind of thing?
The
Gary McCoy: biological male with the breast augmentation who bared
his bare nipples at the White House?
Why do I say that that should not be at the White House?
Daryl Cagle: Gee, I think I just explained that point in this cartoon?
Rivers: Because they have no idea what the story is, Gary.
Gary McCoy: Because I'm sure they do because the point is,
Pat Byrnes: thank you.
Thank you.
That was actually accurate.
And that was generous.
Thank you.
Okay.
Gary McCoy: Um, because I'm leading up to Joe Biden's incompetence.
That's my final point.
So I obviously things that should not be at the White House.
What I just described cocaine again, and then Joe Biden.
It's not, it's not, it's not a anti transgender thing at all.
Thank you.
I have nothing against, I shouldn't have to say this, like you just said,
like Rivers has said, nobody here, we're not racist, we're not transgender, uh,
homophobes, or any of the other labels that the right, or the left lays on the
right, I'm, I'm just saying that there's lines to be drawn, right, we wouldn't,
we wouldn't want a love An outward KKK guy visiting the White House, uh, like
Robert Byrd, we wouldn't want, um, you know, people flashing their boobs
at the White House either, you know.
Or Ron
Pat Byrnes: DeSantis, you wouldn't want him there, because, you know,
after the whole Disney incident,
Gary McCoy: so.
Wait, what did he do that was, what was, what was Disney, cause he
didn't want, uh, he wanted, Disney
Pat Byrnes: criticized DeSantis Don't Say Gay, uh, Wait, wait,
Gary McCoy: wait, wait, stop right there, Pat.
Yeah,
Rivers: yeah, that's an insult.
Does it
Gary McCoy: say, does it say Don't Say Gay in the, in the bill?
Yeah, does it?
Does it say don't say gay in the bill?
Is it anywhere in the bill?
Pat Byrnes: Yeah, if you paraphrase.
Okay, so we're paraphrasing.
It's the meaning.
Yeah, we're talking about the meaning.
We're calling out the meaning.
You don't know the meaning
Gary McCoy: of reasons.
DeSantis said why he was against the bill.
He doesn't want teachers talking about their sex lives to little children.
Which has happened, by the way.
That's called a don't say gay bill.
Pat Byrnes: Any books been banned because of
Rivers: this?
Yeah, books that are pornographic, for one.
Do you have any issue with, you know, books that portray two gay men having
sex that are basically on the shelves for kids that are, say, ten years old?
You don't have a problem with that?
I've seen lists
Daryl Cagle: of books that look like very respectable books that are
being banned because of complaints.
But, well...
It's reported that they're being banned.
Rivers: Well, okay, but we're talking, I'm specifically talking about books
that are pornographic in nature.
Why, why are they being allowed to show these kids, these, you
know, show kids these books?
I mean, it's, it's
Daryl Cagle: I don't think people are arguing about books
that are actually pornographic.
They're arguing about books that are are respected in society.
The, the work of that, uh, poet laureate that Uh, spoke at the
inauguration, that kind of stuff.
Um, that's, uh, that's what, uh, the
Pat Byrnes: authors like John Green
Rivers: and yeah.
So, so if that's true, if that's true, then I'm fine with, you know, that's
something that needs to be visited because certainly, you know, they can
obviously go too far with the banning.
I think that's stupid, uh, because books, I think, uh, should be available.
And, and
Daryl Cagle: so, so Rivers, what did you have in mind with the, uh, the
transgender sexual reference in this one?
Rivers: Right.
So, you know, I used to be a liberal, right?
You know this.
And, uh, um, you know, I used to be very much plugged into the Democrat Party.
Um, I would have voted for, uh...
It
Pat Byrnes: used to be called the
Rivers: Democratic Party, just...
Yeah, sorry, sorry.
A little fine point.
Okay, yeah, thanks for that.
Boy, are you ever fun.
So anyways, you know, it's the, remember the old Reagan, quote that
said, I didn't leave the Democrat party, the Democrat party left me.
Well, that's pretty much the same, the same place that I am too.
I think some of the principles and some of the, things that the Democrats
are, are pushing are completely off.
They're, they're completely off, what was normal.
And you, you're old enough to know this, Pat.
Um, certainly, you look like you're older than 50.
So you remember a world in which we didn't, we didn't do
twerks in front of little kids.
We didn't have, like, um, men going down the street fully nude, uh, in, uh, pride
parades in front of little children.
Because they would have been arrested for that.
But for some reason...
Pat Byrnes: There was streaking.
There was streaking.
Rivers: And they were arrested for that, were they not?
Were they arrested for that?
I can't remember.
We had kids streaking.
Oh yes, they were, weren't they, Pat?
They were, they were arrested for that.
I remember that were streaking at a football game, you got
arrested, but elsewhere...
Yes, yes, and they were arrested, Pat.
And so,
Daryl Cagle: why, why do they...
We had kids streaking through the school
Rivers: cafeteria.
No, stop, stop.
Okay, stop, stop.
Okay, so why, Pat?
Why are they allowed to go down the street, fully naked, showing their
penises, and do the little twerky thing in front of the kids, do gyrations, sexual
gyrations, in front of kids, and you tell me, Pat, how that aligns with your values.
Are those your values?
Pat Byrnes: Pat who, first of all, who does that?
Someone who
Rivers: did that.
Oh my goodness.
Who does that?
Okay.
You don't, you don't follow you, you haven't really been
seeing things, have you?
Uh, like if you go on Twitter, I,
Pat Byrnes: I, I go out on the street.
Rivers: I live in a big city.
Oh, okay.
I don't see penis waggling very often.
Okay.
I guess, I guess I'm just ex, I guess I'm just exposed to things that you
weren't for some reason, but if you, it sounds like very literally too . Yeah.
Very Lily.
No, for some reason, I don't know.
You're ling their, we at you.
Are you sheltered?
Because it's just, to me, it's just odd that you haven't seen any of these videos.
They're all over Twitter.
They're all over Like, I don't watch pornography.
Sorry.
Nobody.
Okay.
Nobody's watching pornography.
Okay.
But, but what you do have is have these where you seeing men
waggle their wieners on Twitter.
Okay.
You know,
Gary McCoy: there's a story on, there's a story on Newsweek, uh, called nudity
at the Seattle Pride Sparks outrage.
Why were they not arrested?
Okay, that's Newsweek.
So you can look that up when we're done.
Yeah,
Rivers: for some reason this seems to be past you.
I don't know why you haven't seen this.
Daryl Cagle: Pat, read this cartoon to us.
Goodness.
Pat Byrnes: Keeping women in their place and putting the
fear of God into sissy boys.
That's what it means to be a man, son.
That's exactly why I'm questioning my gender.
Honestly, I don't know.
With, uh, alpha males and, and some mythical...
masculinity that is kind of overboard.
I think that's
Rivers: confusing to kids.
What's wrong with being, what's wrong with being an alpha male though?
I don't understand this.
What's, what's wrong with being male?
Pat Byrnes: There's nothing wrong with being male.
Being an alpha male, well, you're, you're inviting a lot of stress.
Uh, you're insisting on, on hierarchies that, that don't
naturally exist in our species.
If you're talking about Gorilla Alpha males, you're talking about
Rivers: you're making this stuff as you go here.
You don't, you don't really have an answer for this.
Pat Byrnes: I can tell you some interesting things about Gorilla
Rivers: Alpha males.
Yeah, I bet you can.
But the thing is, is that you're making this stuff as you go.
'cause you don't have an answer for this.
You're just, I don't, I don't.
No, you don't.
You don't.
Oh, my, I, I, I don't understand why, why you draw a cartoon, but you don't,
you don't actually know me so well.
Can I get, can I get the
Pat Byrnes: skill to know me so well?
I wanna get to know me better.
But you see the notes in my heart and in my head, and
Rivers: I don't.
No, it's just, it's, I'm judging, I'm judging your cartoon, and I'm
seeing something that I disagree with, that I think is, is, you
know, something that you've made up.
I don't know what this whole alpha male thing is.
How many guys
Pat Byrnes: on Twitter post with alpha male?
Lots of them.
And if you want me to go on Twitter and find one in a hurry, I can do that.
Okay.
Daryl Cagle: Well, this cartoon made me laugh.
Defund the Library.
That's a great cartoon.
This is one of those making fun of the MAGA guy cartoons
that you guys don't like.
Yeah, I'm
Rivers: surprised he doesn't, he's not toothless, because that's
usually part of the whole gag thing.
It makes him look toothless.
Pat Byrnes: We don't know that he's not toothless.
Come on.
Rivers: Yeah, we don't know that he's not toothless.
It's true, it's true.
But he does have the belly.
Pat Byrnes: So do most men of a certain age in
Rivers: America.
Well, you don't.
You look pretty fit, actually.
Daryl Cagle: Well, there is a lot of issues that, uh, you're talking about
Pat Byrnes: how
Rivers: pretty I'm and fit.
Yeah, you are very pretty.
You are.
Thank you.
Pat Byrnes: The
Daryl Cagle: writers.
You are too.
A lot of issues with libraries, you know,
Pat Byrnes: show yourself.
The whole, business about fighting books, banning books of that
shunning books I struggle with that.
Does that not give you some misgivings?
Rivers: It certainly does for me.
It happens on both sides.
It depends on what they are though.
Gary McCoy: you
Daryl Cagle: have issues with liberals banning books?
Rivers: I have, I have liberals, or I have issues with, with banning books for sure.
But the question is,
Daryl Cagle: on the merit of the book, what do they post?
whataboutism and I wondered what is
Gary McCoy: it about liberals banning books?
Okay, I'm just saying, it doesn't, isn't whataboutisms used too often.
It's fair to point out when, you know, when the point of a debate or an argument
is to shed the light on one particular group as that cartoon just did then
it's fair to point out that it does happen on both sides It's I mean call it
whataboutism or call it just drawing a
Daryl Cagle: parallel.
Yeah, I'm not seeing that.
I'm sure there are examples
Pat Byrnes: Yeah If you do have some examples of Democrats, you know trying
to defund libraries or convert them to punishment centers or ban books Um, then
yeah, there, there are some, because there'll be a lot of concern, uh, a
lot of liberals who will come down hard on those other supposed liberals and
say, no, you should not be doing that.
And there, there will be, there will be loud outcry from the left, uh, uh, against
people on the left who try to do that.
Daryl Cagle: Hey Pat, can you read this one to us?
Pat Byrnes: Yeah, this, this one's right down the middle.
This is a very easygoing, there's, there's, there's, there's, it has no
bias to it, so I think that, that's, this one we'll all be able to agree on.
Mother Goose Steps, Anti Woke Rhymes.
Mommy's a commie and granny's a tranny, but wait till you hear about Pa.
He showed us a look at a history book, knowing books are against the law.
See, just, I mean, this is just straight down the middle kind of stuff.
No big deal.
Daryl Cagle: We do hear a whole lot about banning books and problems that librarians
are having because they don't know what books they're allowed because libraries.
Being closed or threatened to be closed because the librarians
don't know what they can do.
That's not subjecting them to prosecution under Florida's DeSantis law, so
Pat Byrnes: Oklahoma, Texas Missouri it's
Gary McCoy: the risk of being Called out for what about ISM their hope of
painting books is basically cancelling viewpoints To which you don't agree.
Right.
And which side of the political fence is at the forefront of the whole
cancellation movement right now?
How many, uh,
describe canceling in legal terms?
Pat Byrnes: Yeah, I, I'm sorry, I'm not the lawyer, pat, I can't give you a
legal, no, I mean, just describe it in terms of how it is, how it
impacts the law and how, I mean,
Gary McCoy: I'm not making
Pat Byrnes: a, uh, Are we making laws about canceling
Gary McCoy: people, or are we talking about These are, these
Daryl Cagle: are editors who don't choose to run in their publications, uh, uh,
stuff that they, uh, disagree with and, and isn't their editorial point of view.
Gary McCoy: Okay.
A lot of that happens,
Daryl Cagle: and you complain, you complain that most of the
media is liberal, so of course most of those decisions would
be made by liberal editors.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
And I, I, yeah, granted, I'll give you that.
I mean, if you're, you know, editors more than anybody here.
So I'm just talking about the whole cancellation movement lately.
People who've lost their jobs and other things like that are being
canceled is usually people on the right that are the ones being canceled.
Pat Byrnes: like Al Franken, how long were we talking about Al Franken?
So almost can't, it's a similar thing, but it was the liberals that
said, Hey, Al should not to do that.
Gary McCoy: I mean, yeah, I think we can have this, uh, or have
agreement rather that there are.
People who have wide eyes and are clear, clear visioned on the errors of their
own side, both on the right and the left.
Pat Byrnes: This is going to sound like a point of agreement.
So brace yourselves.
Uh, I, I would be happy to see more forgiveness in our
culture say, Oh, Ooh, bad move.
Let's do better.
And here's how that would be a great step forward all the way around.
And I think As a group of four middle aged white guys, we can all agree
that we can take the forefront on this in a very inclusive manner.
Gary McCoy: I was with you 100% up until we got to the...
Pat Byrnes: I don't know what that was.
I just started realizing, like,
Rivers: uh...
Was that an alpha move?
I don't know
Daryl Cagle: Okay, so here you've got the little kid with his gasoline cans
headed off to school and he says, The school's having a book ban fair.
There is a kind of a glee about banning all these books.
Rivers: Hey, he's missing teeth.
He must be a future MAGA supporter.
Gary McCoy: Just age appropriate.
In a moment of outreach, gag.
It's a funny gag
Rivers: good one.
It's a good one.
I'm
Pat Byrnes: a gag cartoonist.
Still at heart.
I'm I got recruited.
I'm trying to bring some mirth because yes, that's what I mean Rivers,
I don't know your cartoon realm background, but Gary, you know, you're
into the funny more than political and I think we need more funny
Rivers: Yeah, both and I'll just say both you guys have very amiable styles.
It's it's a beautiful thing to see.
So
Gary McCoy: likewise
Pat Byrnes: mean there's too much us Against them and we need
more us Against the problem.
And, If we could find a way to say, Hey, we got this problem and we
need everybody because everybody's got something to bring to it.
We could turn this into it'd be, it'd be like going into World War Two.
FDR said, Hey, we'll make the U.
S.
The arsenal of democracy and.
Pulled us out of a depression and, and brought us decades of prosperity
and won a war along the way.
if we were to pull together, I mean, the advances in technology and, and just
quality of life could be astonishing.
If we get each other's backs and we can pull them together, the more is us against
the problem and less up against them, the better we'll all things will be.
Daryl Cagle: Here's a cartoon from you, Pat.
Pat Byrnes: This reflects what I, kind of what I see on, on Twitter.
And I, I, I projected it onto Fox News, which may have been a
disservice, but, you know, you gotta shorthand stuff in a cartoon.
Uh, In today's news, still President Trump, looking jacked in his tights,
defeats Vladimir Putin in single combat.
Black Americans finally apologize for sneaking into the country on slave ships.
And, a lot of this, you know, really comes from that, that first part with,
uh, there are a number of, uh, Like, again, I'll go back, Marjorie Taylor
Greene and some Laura Loomer, Looney person and a few other people that
are big Trump cheerleaders run these kind of weird, images of Trump and
with, you know, ripped muscles and, George Washington and all this stuff.
And then they go, you never do anything like, you know, no
one ever goes to a Biden rally.
And like, oh man, what?
Do you guys, can you explain this, personality cult around these
fantasy images of, of, Trump?
Rivers: Yeah, no, I can't.
I to the
Pat Byrnes: fact that, you know, some people are going, he's still president.
But, I mean, what, what is with that?
Gary McCoy: Well, I never view him that way or portrayed him that way,
but I think a lot of it has to do with that many, many Republicans.
view Trump as a guy who represents them, represents their best motives.
and I think he's just well loved.
I mean, this, you know, former New York City liberal comes about and puts three
Supreme Court conservative justices on the bench, turns the economy around,
uh, gets us out of foreign wars.
And I think he's just idealized, I think, many, to many people, he's a hero who
came along when we needed someone like
that.
Daryl Cagle: This was a very nice lovefest.
Thanks for telling me about me and I love all you guys.
That's what I can do.
We've just gone too long, so we're gonna wrap it up, and thank you for being here.
Would you guys do it again sometime?
Sure.
Pat Byrnes: Sure, if there's beer.
Can you bring beer?
Can we just...
Rivers: Alright.
That's right, we're not getting paid for this.
Yeah, we're not getting paid for this, now that I'm thinking about it.
All right,
Daryl Cagle: gentlemen.
Thank you all for being here.
Everybody watching this, please subscribe, subscribe and like
wherever you're watching this.
If you're listening to an audio version only just go to CagleCast.com and
you can see the video version and we will see you on the next CagleCast.
And thank you again, gentlemen
Gary McCoy: Okay, guys, thanks.
It was fun.
Thank you.
Pat Byrnes: Thank you.
Gary McCoy: Yeah.
All right.
See you next time.
Pat Byrnes: See ya.
How do I get out of here?